4 Race Morning Must Do's with Olympian Carrie Tollefson

TriDot Podcast Episode 304

4 Race Morning Must Do's with Olympian Carrie Tollefson

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Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast! Big show today. I am chatting, one-on-one, with the legendary Carrie Tollefson. She's a National Champion middle distance runner, an Olympian, a broadcaster, and a podcaster. And spoiler alert, Carrie will be collaborating with us, here at Predictive Fitness, in a big way for the RunDot Podcast. More on all of that later. On the show today, Carrie's also going to give us her four pre-race tips -- the four things she likes to make sure she does before a race. So lots of good stuff from her. I'm Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always, we'll roll through our warm-up question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cool down. As always, we'll start with our warm-up question, settle in for our main set conversation, getting to know Carrie, and then we'll wind things down by having an audience question for Carrie to answer. Let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world-class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm-up.

Andrew Harley: All right, Carrie, welcome to the show. For our warm-up question today, I want to talk about running shoes. On the surface, I think putting on a pair of running shoes and going out for a run seems pretty straightforward. It's pretty foolproof. And yet, I am willing to bet most of the athletes in our audience, myself included, yourself included, have had something go wrong with their footwear at some point in their sporting career. So, Carrie, for our warm-up question today, what is a misadventure in footwear that you encountered during athletic training or racing?

Carrie Tollefson: Thank you so much for having me, but yes, I have had a couple mishaps. Not so much training –

Andrew Harley: Good. Good.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, it's good to hear that everyone has them. But I've had a couple mishaps in races. And so I was thinking back about the mishaps, and two different situations happened to me, and both at that part of my career where I was thinking, am I coming back or am I just riding this wave into retirement? And so it sealed the deal. One time I was way over in Helsinki, racing, and I was ready to have a big race, and somebody stepped my shoe off, and I was running the 1500. So just a little short of the mile, not long, didn't have time to sit down and put my shoe back on. So I had to step off the track, because I had issues with my heels. And so if I ran barefoot, I would get plantar fasciitis really fast, and it would stick with me for a long time, so I didn't dare chance it. And another time I was just coming back, trying to make the Olympic trials, standard, and I just had our oldest, Ruby, and I went out to Portland to run a race. I think it was Portland? It might've actually been LA. I think it was in LA. And somebody stepped my shoe off two laps into the 5K, and there was no way I could run 10 more laps without a shoe on. But the funny part is, I was warming up that day, and a black cat went in front of me on my warm-up. And I was like, “Oh no, what's going to happen?” And then something bad happened, and I'm not even that superstitious. And that just was like, ugh, what is happening? Ruby's back home. Charlie, my husband, was back home. And I come all the way out to LA, it was, and sure enough, my shoe got taken off. It’s not cool to have your shoe taken off during races.

Andrew Harley: Is that a fairly common thing in the pro field? Does that happen fairly regularly or no? Just twice to you?

Carrie Tollefson: You know, it doesn’t happen regularly, but with spikes especially. They're hard to flip back up onto your heel with. You tie them pretty tight. So, yeah, I really -- I didn't have very many falls in my career. I had a couple -- one at the World Cross Country Championship. I had one when I was on the track. But other than that, I really didn't have much that happened. And distance events get pretty physical. So I was pretty lucky, but pretty annoying to have your shoe come off. So, that's my shoe story.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, there's such little gear involved in running, and yet things can go wrong with the one piece of gear we need, and that's our shoes. I was doing the half IRONMAN at Clash Daytona. So, Carrie, in the triathlon world, that's a really cool race where you actually race on Daytona International Speedway. It's like you're riding your bike on the NASCAR track. You're running through the track on the infield. Super cool event. And I'm in my Nike Vapor Flys. And Carrie, I love Caterpy laces. Are you familiar with Caterpy shoelaces for running?

Carrie Tollefson: Are they the no tie?

Andrew Harley: Yeah, they're no tie, and they have these little -- there's a couple of brands that do no tie run shoes, but they have these little balls. So they look like little caterpillars, hence the name Caterpy. And I've never had any problem with my Caterpy laces. They always keep my foot nice and locked in. I slide the shoes on while I'm barefoot, and I go off running. But for whatever reason, on this one race, when I opened up the shoe to slide my foot in, my entire Caterpy lace on one side, on the right foot, came undone and slipped through the eyelet of the shoe. And so I basically ran the whole half marathon with my right shoe somewhat loose. It stayed on, but it was definitely kind of “clown shoe”-ing it at times, around turns and stuff. It just wasn't very tight at all. Because essentially, it'd be like running in an untied pair of shoes. And thankfully, those carbon-plated shoes, for race day, they kind of have a tighter upper to begin with. So in the end, I think I was okay. But there was a couple moments where I was like, is this shoe going to stay on, or am I going to be Carrie Tollefson pulling off to the side with my shoe coming off? And ironically, Carrie, it was probably my best run off the bike I've ever had. I ran a 1:38 half marathon off the bike, which, for my ability, is pretty solid. And the whole time, I was just trying to keep my shoe on. So that's my story. We're going to throw this question out to our audience like we always do. This question will go out on our Instagram, it will go out in the I AM TRIDOT Facebook group, and it will go out in the TriDot Community Hub. So if you're engaging with us in any of those places, find the question asking you, from all of your athletic adventures, what is a time that something went wrong with your shoes? Can't wait to hear what you, our audience, has to say.

Announcer: Let's go.

Andrew Harley: On to our main set, where today, we're shutting down our regularly scheduled programming to just sit down, one-on-one, and get to know Carrie Tollefson. We're so excited to have Carrie coming on board with TriDot/RunDot to host the RunDot Podcast. And we'll talk a little bit more about that later in the show, just about why we've aligned with her and are excited to have her in the fold. But today, we're just going to get to know Carrie, and Carrie's going to leave us, before the main set's over, with her 4 must-do things. The 4 things you've got to do before your race, whether it's a triathlon or a running event. Can't wait to learn from Carrie before we're all done here. But Carrie, running is -- it's an interesting sport, right? Because there's always the famous joke that for runners, what other sports do as punishment is your sport. As a tennis player myself, we had to run to be in shape to play tennis. Your sport is the running part. So just what are your earliest memories, as a kid, of running competitively, and thinking oh, this is a sport I want to pursue?

Carrie Tollefson: Well, I started running because I had two older sisters that were athletes, and they both ran cross country, not because they loved the sport of running, but because they wanted to be better athletes. My middle sister was a really good basketball player and a hurdler, and so she wanted to just never have to take a time out in basketball. She wanted to be on the court the entire time, lead the full court press -- she’s the point guard, and so was I, because I had this middle sister that I looked up to and wanted to be just like. And then our older sister was really good at sports, but loved music and also just loved to study so much -- that was her thing. And so—

Andrew Harley: Nerd.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes, big time nerd, but I love her so much. But she ran cross-country because I think she did like being out in the woods and on cross-country courses. She liked that aspect of it. And so I went out for cross to be like my big sisters. And in the very first race that I ran, I really learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about pushing myself, but also about having fun competing. And I was a little bit scared. I passed my bigger sister, my middle sister, up on the tree-lined part of the course in cross country, and I didn't know if I should pass her, and she looked over and said in so many words, that I knew I couldn't repeat to my mom and dad, but just to get going. And then we sat around that night at home, and she said, “Don't you ever let anyone dictate your outcome in life.” And it was so nice, because she was so good. She was one of the best in the state at both basketball and track. And just to have her say, “Go for it.” And so for me, that first race that I had really taught myself how to dig deep, just go for it, have fun running hard. Don't worry about who you're beating and not beating. The better you do, the better your team does. And so I think that was one of my first memories of the sport. But it was hard. I just had this conversation, today, with my daughter. We did a really early workout, her first one back, going into 10th grade, and we were running around, and it was a hard workout. And after her fourth 800, I said, this is what breaks people from this sport. Being able to push through the pain -- the good pain. Just the, “I'm tired. I don't know if I want to run.” Not the pain, “My foot hurts really bad, and I'm trying to fight through.” Not that pain, but the pain of digging deep, and going and doing something that most people decide they're not going to do. There's a lot of people that try to run for a while, and then they're just like, that is not fun. Running and having to breathe heavy and work through things is not fun. But I told Ruby, I said, “This is what sets you apart from different people, and it sets you apart from people in life, as well.” So we had a good life lesson talk this morning. And so, yeah, I learned it early on, and I'm still sharing it with my daughter and younger people along the way.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, that's so awesome. And I just, I'm so impressed by your older sister, being a high schooler at the time and having that perspective that she gave you. And this is a joke that people will get if they listen to your podcast, but she more or less told you to get after it, right?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, she did, from very early on. I mean, I was in 7th grade, and I was the ugly duckling, for sure. 1989, it was, giving you all my age, but my big bangs, and I had big teeth, big, buck teeth. And so she probably always teased that she probably saw me in her shadow, or in the shadow, this ugly duckling type figure right next to her. She knew it was me. But, yeah, I owe a lot to my mom and dad and my sisters for introducing the sport in a way that was fun, because I think this sport is daunting. And no matter what age you're at, if you're just starting it, it's daunting. It's daunting for me to go out and have to do a workout with my younger daughter, because I know it's going to hurt. I know it's going to test my ability to want to help her get through it. I don't have to do this anymore. I'm not competing anymore. And so I had to, last night, get my shoes ready, get my outfit ready, get my mind right to get out at 6:15 this morning and go do 4 x 800, and some hill repeats, and some 200s. So, yeah, it was fun. I'm glad it's over, though.

Andrew Harley: You won everything there was to win when you were in high school cross-country and track, and you went on to compete collegiately for Villanova University. And by the time you were done there, you'd won 5 National Championships. You were named the 1998 NCAA Indoor Track Athlete of the Year. You were the first person, male or female, to win the national title for both the 3k and the 5k. So just how did that experience running at Villanova shape the professional that you would become?

Carrie Tollefson: Let me just say, I did win a lot in high school. And you named off all the best things that happened in my career. Way to go. But I did get beat, and I got knocked down time and time again. So I know every aspect of this sport. I've been lapped, I've fallen, I have been sick, I've been injured time and time again, and I've just straight up gotten my butt kicked. I wasn't good enough on that day. So I know all of that, and I appreciate you saying the nice things about the wins, but the losses definitely were there too. But Villanova was amazing. It was so fun. When I went out to Villanova, they had won 6 National Championships as a team for 6 years in a row. So I was going to the number one school, 26 hours away from my hometown, in Philadelphia, big, big city. So it was very scary, and just a life changing moment for me out there. But I learned, really early on, just what it was like to put yourself in a situation where you have not only like-minded, goal-driven people, but you had to rise to the occasion, and be okay doing that with your family quite a ways away from home, and this small community that supported me, just sort of going out there and having to do it on my own and create that community. So a big step in my life. Even now, when I look back at it, that was a moment that really changed me -- going from high school to college and learning how to deal with life on my own. And I had a great system out there. I mean, I had great coaches. Marcus O'Sullivan, Gina Picaccio. John Marshall was my first coach when I was out there. So we had this great community already, but I had to figure out where my role was. And it was awesome. It was heartbreaking. It was scary. I was on a roller coaster of emotions at times, but at the end of the day, every day, I was so excited to be there.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And you ran several different events in your time there, between cross-country and indoor track. What was your jam? What was the one event you just got the most fired up to compete in?

Carrie Tollefson: I loved the 3K. I loved cross-country. I've always been one that -- I'm not a trail runner, partly because I just had all these kids, and I haven't had time to get to the trails and things like that. So I always thought maybe after my career on the track, I would move to the trails -- and there's still time. But I loved cross-country, so I'm surprised I haven't figured out a way to really get into it. But in track, I loved the 3K, and it was just that distance where my mind could stay engaged, and I could stay hungry and excited about attacking the last half of the race. The 5K became my bread and butter, but it really wasn't my favorite, even when I was running really fast in it. I just -- it was a lot of time spent calming my brain, and I really didn't want to have to think in races. So the 3K, had there been an event while I was racing -- now there's this 3K steeple. That was just starting when I was in my career, and I was so injured that we were afraid that my heels would not take the water jumps. So then I ran the 1500 and the 5K as a pro. And so, yeah. But at Villanova, like you said, I ran all of the races. I ran randomly. I'd run an 800 here and there for relays, or for points, but mainly I'd run the 1500, 3, and the 5K there, which were -- all three, I loved.

Andrew Harley: Yep. And so you're super-fast in high school, super-fast in college. Had a great experience there. So it's no surprise you went pro, and you were super-fast in the pro field and had a lot of success. And I hate bringing people onto the show, and we got roughly an hour to chat, and I hate minimizing someone's professional career to just a question or two, but we got so much we want to get to today with you. What would you say from your time as a pro, racing mainly the 1500, 3K, 5K -- what's just your favorite story to tell from your days as a pro? And we'll put the Olympics to the sides. We'll talk about the Olympics in a second.

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, great question. I would have to say, probably, again, I'm going to go back to cross-country. My first U.S. Championship in cross-country -- well, I think it was the only one that I won in cross-country, but it was in Van Cortlandt Park, which is out in New York. And I just felt like that was a moment that everything clicked for me. Mentally, I was in it, and I was attacking hills, and there were some -- not steps so much, but platforms that we had to run down the last ‘K’. And it was just like, everything was going my way. I was able to sort of stay, I don't know, awake enough to be able to hit it every step rather than stutter-stepping down those big platforms. And I just felt like I was an athlete on that day, and not just a runner. I was able to be agile and get through the course. And so that was a moment that I don't think I'll forget, because I just -- it all clicked that day, and I was ready to attack anything. And when you have a race where physically you're ready and mentally it goes well, you remember those, and you hope to be able to replicate that time and time again, because a lot of times you're just struggling. You're fighting your body or you're fighting your brain, and when it clicks, you have to -- I took a lot of notes from that race, and I just tried to remember what I did right, and how even the training coming into it worked for me, and the taper, and all of that. So that was a really good race for me, and was able to go over to the World Cross, and that was the year I fell at World Cross. So that was a little bit of a bummer.

Andrew Harley: In Finland, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: It was a tough, tough day for me to race World Cross, but it was still great. I had the USA across my chest, and that's always an honor.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. No kidding. I had a tennis coach, back in high school, that made a comment that I've always remembered. There was a match that I had won, and it was a kid that I should have beaten very easily. And I won, but the score line was closer than I felt it should have been. I was a little upset about it. And he was like, man, you got to remember, when you step on the court, you will have those days where you're playing a 100%, full out, everything's clicking. But most days, your game is going to be working at 80% capacity. That's just reality. You can't always have it turned all the way on. And so the trick is figuring out what's working today, what's not working today, and how can I win this match with the 80% of my ability that is clicking? And I think, as an amateur in sports, that makes sense for us. But you just assume, oh, when the pros go out, everything's always clicking for them. They're a professional at this. And then you hear the pros talk, and it seems more and more that that's not the case. And so it's interesting to hear that your big, takeaway memory from your pro career was just one day where everything just exceptionally clicked. Do you feel like, running in the pro field, you had days where it just didn't click or days where you were at the 80% capacity? What was the norm for you when you ran a race as a pro?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, I mean, you do remember those good days. But I mean, the majority of -- and I think too, as people and as -- maybe, when you think of being a world-class athlete, part of it is that we do know how to push through those moments. That's part of what separates us, I think. I look back, and I probably remember more of the moments that didn't go well than the moments that did. Because even in the moments that did go well, the ones that we won, you're always trying to be better. You always want to run faster. There's always a moment. So I think that's part of what separates us as well, is being able to come back, time and time again, and try to perfect and be better. You beat yourself down as athletes. No matter what sport you're in, you beat yourself up all the time. And I remember that. My dad was a college football player, and he lived in a household full of women. My mom was not an athlete -- she would have been a heck of one, but didn't have the opportunity in her time. But she did start her own business, and was a woman that had her own business in a time that not a lot of women did. And I think that was the athlete-mind in her. She was competitive. She wanted to prove people wrong. She wanted to do things that not many people did. But we would all sit around the table, and my mom had this kind of mindset, too, and my dad had this mindset of an athlete. And we first talked about what went well, but we always talked about what didn't. And it was okay to sort of ‘air the dirty laundry’. Let's see what happened.

Andrew Harley: Acknowledge that, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, acknowledge that, because that is what is going to get you back out there, get you fired up to see if you can do better the next time. So when I look back at my career, whether it was in high school, college, or as a pro, those are the things that I think about. Like, yeah, there were good moments. Always, there's good moments. But what is it that's going to make me better? And that's where it's those -- I don't like to talk about failing, but it's where you faltered, maybe. And I had a lot of races where I can, so many races where I'm like, what was that moment that I gave up, or I let the foot off the gas, or my mind just overtook and I folded. And even still to this day, it just kind of burns at me, if you didn't already notice. I think about that. I've run 15:04 for 5K. And how hard was it for me to just run a little bit faster, to break 15 minutes, when hardly anyone was doing it at that time? That was the 7th fastest time in US history when I ran 15:04. And still, to this day, every now and then, I'll wake up in the middle of the night, I'm like, ugh, I had 1 or 2 laps that were just where I was floating and not attacking. Like, get over it already, lady.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And you think about that one 20 meters where you felt like you put off the gas in hindsight. But I think it's comforting, because I, just as you're talking, I can remember in all the triathlons I've raced, 3 of them, 4 of them, where I left the race thinking, man, that one clicked. The swim, the bike, the run -- I left nothing on the table. I paced it right, I fueled it right, and I came across the finish line feeling like I had perfectly given everything. Three out of my 40ish triathlons that I've done. And so to hear the rest of them, the rest of the 30-something races I've done, that I probably could have done something a little bit better along the way, or given a little bit more effort in this moment or that moment. So it's, I guess it's comforting to know that even at the professional level of the sport, from National Champions, Olympians, you feel the same way, and you're trying to eke out the most of your body as you can every single time you go out there to race. So Carrie, let's talk about the Olympics. In 2004, you raced. You were the only American, actually, to make the qualifying time for the Olympics and the 1500. And you had a great performance out there. You advanced through Heat 1 to the semifinals and came just short of grabbing one of the 12 slots for the finals. Hopefully that's not a bad memory, me saying that. But what was it like competing on that stage? And what did you take away, just from the Olympic experience in Athens?

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, it was so cool. I mean, I'm so excited. I've shown my tattoo a little bit, but you can see it right there. I just got it, not even a year ago. Yeah. There was a couple people that told me, when we were still in Athens, “This moment changed your life forever.” And I didn't really get it. Like, “I'm at the Olympics. That's cool. I'm an Olympian forever.” But now, as I've walked through life, and I've realized how many opportunities that being an Olympian opens up for me, has been a real blessing, and it's been really cool to be able to have that next to my name. But being at the Olympics was awesome. I think the way I got there was even more exciting, because I wasn't a favorite in the 1500. I had to basically lead from start to finish, which was exactly not what my coach wanted me to do. So, just persevering through not making it in the event I thought I would make it, in the 5K, and coming back and running the 15, getting to the Olympics was sort of just icing on the cake. I was hoping to make it again the next year, in 2008, and I didn't end up doing that. I had pneumonia 3 weeks before the trials and just wiped me out.

Andrew Harley: That's such a hard thing with running. To qualify, you've got to peak on the one day of qualification.

Carrie Tollefson: One day every four years. Yep. So I think when I was at the Olympics, I was just soaking it all in. I was very nervous. I didn't have two other Americans running alongside me on my warm-up, so I was all alone. And I do remember, though, during the middle of the race, just trying to follow moves, and not get too locked up, and get in anyone's way, and things like that. It was a different race scenario for me. And it was one where you didn't just go. You were thinking a lot. And I had had a couple coaches in life that have really stuck with me. They tell me, “Don't think, just run.” But I thought the entire race, both for the first round and the second round. So coming up a little bit short was tough, and especially now, because four women went on to get busted after that. So I would have been in that final. But I don't really want to dwell on that, but it's still like, ugh, I was so close to making the final. That still irks at me, as well.

Andrew Harley: I thought it might. Sorry to bring it up, but it's part of hearing the story.

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, it was such an honor though. Andrew, it was so cool to be at the Olympic Games this last summer as a commentator, and to go back and to think, gosh, I actually was on that track with close to 100,000 people in the stadium, and then knowing millions are watching us back home. In my little town of 1,600 people in rural Minnesota, everyone was so thrilled. I mean, it was a moment like none other. I mean, it really still gives me goosebumps, and I get a little emotional talking about it. It was so cool. So, yeah, I'm really proud of it.

Andrew Harley: And for a professional runner, I mean, there's different race series, race circuits, racing here, racing there, this championship, that championship, all throughout the season. So that coming up once every four years, does it feel like -- is the pressure, the emotions, the everything amped up for the Olympics compared to everything else?

Carrie Tollefson: Yes. It's wild. The Olympic trials are almost more pressure packed than the Olympic Games. And I'm not somebody that was thought of to get the Olympic gold, so that's a whole added pressure. I was just going and running hard, trying to represent America as best I could. But making the team here in America is, I mean, terrible is not the word, but that's what comes to mind. It is like you have never been that nervous in your life. Even walking down the aisle to marry Charlie, I was like, this is easy. Try running in the Olympic trials.” Some people were like, “You don't seem very nervous.” I'm like, “Have you ever run an Olympic trials before?” Because that's -- especially when you really have an opportunity to make the team. My first round at the Olympic trials, I was living life. I was like, “This is so cool.” Happy to be there, although I was lapped on national television, right when the winner won. There Carrie goes, another one ringing the bell for me to go for one more. But no, the trials are really tough. And so for me, the Olympic Games was kind of like a breath of fresh air. I was there. Live it up, have fun. And then in 2008, come back and really go for it. Which didn't end up happening.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, sorry. So sorry about that. So sorry.

Carrie Tollefson: But it was so cool.

Andrew Harley: A consolation prize, Carrie, that I'm sure you're equally happy about -- in 2006 -- this is my favorite thing in your bio. In 2006—

Carrie Tollefson: Oh my gosh. No, no, no.

Andrew Harley: Sports Illustrated, being the highly acclaimed academic publication that it is, they declared you, Carrie, to be the fourth – fourth – most beautiful athlete in the world.

Carrie Tollefson: And as you can see, I totally am. I didn't curl 1 strand for you people, I'm sorry. I did my workout with Ruby, and then I had to go to boys football camp, and then I got home and turned on the mic. So as you can see, it's true.

Andrew Harley: It's an athlete audience. We all get it. We all get that life. What was your reaction when you first heard about that? And do you remember, Carrie, who they ranked 1, 2, and 3 ahead of you?

Carrie Tollefson: I do remember. It was Anna Kournikova, who was first -- which you will know all these tennis gals. Anna Kournikova. Second, I think, was Gabby Reece, the volleyball player, and then who was married to the famous surfer. And then third was Maria Sharapova, also tennis player.

Andrew Harley: Tennis player, yeah. So two blonde Russian tennis players.

Carrie Tollefson: And all of them had these Maxim -- do you remember Maxim? They still have that magazine, but all the athletes –

Andrew Harley: Admittedly, I don't know about that magazine.

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, well, it was a little more of a risque magazine for athletes.

Andrew Harley: And you had a running photo.

Carrie Tollefson: Like a Runner's World, but a men's magazine that was still PG, but they would have really pretty photo shoots, but like bikinis and stuff like that. So I had -- my picture was from me racing, and I swear I had like spit on my face. They had Maxim photo shoots, so they were -- and they are. They are way prettier than I am. But they had these beautiful shots in this Sports Illustrated, and mine was like the third lap of a 1500 -- hurting and not cute, again. So we laughed about that. But I do remember when we found out, two different conversations happened. My mom and sisters were like, “Yep, you're number 4, just like in our family.” So mom was number 1, and the two sisters were number 2. Everyone called me Quatro for a while. And then I remember my agent, like, “Carrie, this is—" I was like, “Is this a big deal?” The three women in front of me are multi-millionaires. And I'm making, I don't know, 20 grand? And my agent just said, “Run faster.” That's all he said. Yeah, we'll take this to whatever company it was before influencers were a thing. I was like, “Should I try to get my phone free? I'll do a T-Mobile commercial.” Nope, he just said, “Run faster.” So nothing came out of it. Absolutely zero.

Andrew Harley: Do you wish, Carrie, that social media and being able to build a platform for yourself, do you wish that had been there when you were a pro, so you could have capitalized on monetizing that a little bit in your prime? Or are you glad that you didn't have one extra thing to try to do while you were pursuing pro running?

Carrie Tollefson: You know, I really like what social media does for people. I mean, it really does give the world a chance to really get to know them. It's a lot on the athletes. I get that. Some athletes do not like it at all. But then there's some -- I think that I probably would have been okay with it, especially -- I did work while I was competing, but I would have had some time each day to do it. And I started with a YouTube channel at the end of my career, and then I got into podcasting, so I think it would have been a natural flow for me to do more. But even still, to this day, it's just not something that I love to do. I'm not real good at self-promotion, so I would have had to learn it. But I do think it's a really good asset for people to have now. But I, again, it's something -- the whole Sports Illustrated thing is sort of a joke in my life, to be honest, because most people know me, and I'm about as goofy as it gets.

Andrew Harley: Well, and you get to leverage that beautiful, fourth in the world beautiful face in your career now, as a professional broadcaster. And you and I, I worked in television for a long time, so we've, behind the scenes, already chatted about broadcasting for a long time and nerded out. But for our athletes listening, if you guys don't know this, if you fire up the Boston Marathon coverage, Chicago, New York City, even the Olympics, right there, on camera, talking to you about what's happening on the race, is Carrie Tollefson. You are on camera at all the biggest races, for all the biggest networks, which is super cool to me, and I love hearing about it. Was broadcasting always an interest of yours to pursue after the pro-running career? How did that transition happen?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. I think even in high school, I always wanted to be the local weather woman, because I loved meteorology, and I loved the weather. And then when I went out to Villanova, I was in communications, so there was an obvious interest in communications, but we didn't have a broadcast major, or we didn't have that -- we didn't have a ton of classes on it. But I did have an emphasis in broadcast. So I did do a year-long internship, and I did some courses on writing scripts and things like that. But yeah, I always wanted to do it. I did some radio spots when I was at Villanova. I did some video work for them. And then, like I said, I did my internships. And then when I was starting my professional career, I was interviewed when I placed 2nd at the USA Cross Country Championships, and I asked Tony Revis -- who is a huge name in our sport -- I said, “Hey, if there's ever an opportunity, can I work with you? I want your job one day.” And he, right away, said, “Carrie, can you come and help on the next Rock and Roll Marathon?”

Andrew Harley: That's so cool.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, it was so cool, and really neat because there weren't a lot of females on the mic at the time. So randomly, I would just go, and I would do some, because that was when they were on tv. So I would do the Rock and Roll Marathons when it lined up with my career. And so I started really early on, and now that is what has been so fun, and a really good way for me to stay in the sport and share my passion as much as I can with the audience.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And whenever we're texting back and forth, just booking podcast things, and booking running things, and booking chats, you'll be, “Oh, I'm on the broadcast coverage for Peachtree this weekend, then I'm on for Chicago next weekend.” And it's just, you're the coolest person I know, for sure, already. But for our audience, when you go to one of these major events -- Chicago, Boston, whatever it is -- and you're just, what's the race weekend like for the professional broadcasters? What are your responsibilities? What are you doing with your time? How are you making sure you're ready to rock and roll and talk about the race while it's happening live?

Carrie Tollefson: Sure. I mean, it takes a lot of prep before the actual weekend, so you should see my notes. I, actually, my husband's an architect, and so we have a lot of 11 x 17 -- I think it's 11 x 17. It might be 11 x 14 -- but big pages, because he'll print off some of his plans, and things like that, and I use those for my broadcast. So I'll have these, it's like a big book, and it has every kind of info that you would need for the broadcast, whether it's just their PRs, or their stories in life, who they run with, their teams, all that. So the prep is what takes the longest. And I'll do that for months in advance, to be honest. Because I'm watching what all the athletes are doing year-round. And then race weekend is usually pretty busy for me. If I'm not doing a live podcast, which I've been doing time and time again, over the last 15 years. I'll do a live podcast. I'm now hosting a lot of the press conferences, or even charity events. So I'm doing some MC work. I'll do some of their social, if they need that. Press conferences, chatting with the athletes, the agents, the coaches. It's just a lot of research for the potential that I need to talk about someone. And a lot of times, I don't. A lot of times you have all this research, and you don't get everything in.

Andrew Harley: You got 24 ladies in the lead pack, and it whittles to 20, to 15, to 12, to 2. And all of a sudden, you're just talking about the 2. And the research you did on the other 20, doesn't matter.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, last summer at the Olympics, I was over there for a month, in Paris, and every day, I talked about every event. It wasn't just distance events. I had to cover all of them. That was a grind. It was really hard. My brain actually hurt after that. Those 4 weeks, I was completely exhausted. But we got home, and we had to get right back into it. It was fall marathon season. So kind of like a mental dump, and then you get going again.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. That's so interesting. When I was a TV producer, every time we had a guest booked for the show, just going back to the conversation about social media, honestly, I often found the most helpful tool to learning what the vibe was of a guest, and what they were about, and what they were into was their social media handles. I'd find them on Facebook, I'd find them on Instagram, and that often would tell me more about that person than their own website. So, anyway. Super interesting to hear. And, yeah, now for all of our listeners, next time you're firing up one of those broadcasts, you'll see Carrie, you'll hear Carrie, and you'll know Carrie, and it'll be super fun to hang out with Carrie for little while.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, you’ll hear the long ‘O’, “don’t you kn’o’w”, here and there.

Andrew Harley: “Don’t you know,” that Minnesota, yeah, that Minnesota. It's all right. We've got the “y'all”. They're used to my Texas “y'all”. From your time broadcasting and covering these races, what was maybe just one moment that stood out to you as being extra special, extra interesting? I guess anything. Sky's the limit. Something random, something wild that you were just very thankful that you had the chance to be on the mic, talking about it as it was happening.

Carrie Tollefson: I think when Shalane Flanagan won New York. She was the first American in, I think it was 40 years. I can't remember. I don't have that stat in front of me. It took a long time for us to get an American. Maybe it was 20 years. But I remember trying to keep it together on air. And at the same time, letting it just be, because she was a really good friend of mine throughout our years of racing, and I looked up to her, even though she was 4 and a half years or so younger than me. And I was proud of her, and I was proud of the American running community, and the elite community. And so I think that that was a moment. I know we went to commercial right before we called her in. We knew she was going to win, and I just lost it. I'm like, “Get it together before you're on camera again.” But it was so special, and it was a really cool moment. So that, I think, was exciting. But then also calling world records have been really neat. I've sat on the lead vehicle, I've been in the studio and seen different world records. Those are moments in history. We just watched Ruth Chepng'etich run sub-2:10 in Chicago last year, and I was in the studio for that. And trying to get the words out while you're so pumped -- that's where the athlete in me needs to calm down and be able to tell the story. So I have to remind myself that I'm still on air. So the emotion can be there, but you're still on air. You still got to do your job.

Andrew Harley: You're still a broadcast professional who's got to be a broadcast professional. I was watching Shalane across the finish line. I mean, it was just one of those iconic moments, right? The red and black asymmetric Nike kit with the arm sleeves. She looked awesome. I just love that she's coming in the finish line, didn't she like yell the F word? She was just so excited. She was like, “F yes!” I'm like, it's just an iconic moment all the way around, for sure. So, yeah, that's a good one that I remember as well. Well now, you're also a podcaster, which we have that in common. And we're, on this recording, we're doing okay. We're 47 minutes in as two podcasters. We could probably chat for 2 hours and not even blink. Usually when our episodes go long, it's probably my fault, not the guest's fault. And we try not to go long. But what inspired you? At what point did you decide, man, I really want to get into the podcast space. I want to talk running on a microphone with other elite runners. You started C Tolle Run, as in Carrie Tollefson Run. Yay! And I would encourage all of our listeners, go check out Carrie's podcast. I've been listening to it a lot lately, and I'm always impressed by the conversations. I'm encouraged by the conversations. I learned from the conversations, as you're interviewing people around the running industry. But what was the spark that led to you launching your own podcast?

Carrie Tollefson: Well, like I said, we started the YouTube channel first, and that was really fun. We did a weekly video where we would do different workout ideas, race recaps, cooking videos, strength training, all the things. And I love that, because I like to be on camera, and I think that I could apologize with my smile at times, just by being goofy and whatever. But then we, at C Tolle Run, talked about the podcast, doing podcasting, because in 2016, it was still fairly new. Podcasting was getting going, but there weren't a lot of running podcasts. So we started that. And then I fell in love with the fact that I could actually get to know an athlete even better and share with them their story. And again, that roller coaster ride that you go on as an athlete, the ups and downs. And even there were times where we learned stories of people that weren't elite athletes. We went for walks and interviewed mayors, or we went for runs with people, at times, and chatted with them, or learned from the parents of Gwen Jorgensen. Obviously, you all know her at TriDot. Yeah. We love interviewing her mom. I have not interviewed her dad. I should say we've interviewed her mom. But just hearing how she, or they raised her, and we've actually talked to Pat, her husband, and we've cooked with him before. We've done all of the things. And the podcast was a really nice way for me to get to know them at a deeper level. So that's kind of what you hear on C Tolle Run. It's not so much -- I mean, there are ‘how to’ type podcasts, but it's more just the story of people, a lot of them are elite, but not all of them, and how they get after life. That's my tagline, “Get After It.” And I just want to know how people get after it.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I absolutely love it. And we're excited, because we're partnering with you on your show. And RunDot is going to be very involved with C Tolle Run. You're going to be very involved with RunDot, and you're somebody, Carrie, that as -- it was very important to us that the person that hosts the RunDot Podcast, when we were ready to launch it, was just neck deep in run culture, neck deep in the sport, had a passion for the sport. It would have been very easy just for me to take another hour of my week and host a second podcast. I run, I know how to run, but I'm not neck deep in it, passionate about it like you are. And for a runner that tunes into the RunDot Podcast, I want them to just be drawn in by the passion of the host and the asking questions. And so to me, it's perfect, because our listeners, our running listeners, and even our triathletes listening today that want more podcast time, they can fire up the RunDot Podcast, when we launch it, coming soon, and learn about running. They're going to be interviewing running coaches, and it's going to be, just like the TriDot Podcast, learning how to be a good runner, how to be a good triathlete. And then they can go fire up C Tolle Run at a different time in their training week, and they can get great stories and great inspiration. And that's something that we don't do on our podcast intentionally, because we want it to be a place where people come to get coached. And so we're very excited for the runners in our ecosystem to have that outlet with C Tolle Run. So for our listeners listening today, if they're going to go check out your show and get just their feet wet with, “Okay, what's Carrie's podcast like?” What is your top recommendation for an episode for all of us to go check out and listen to?

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, goodness. There's so many. That’ll take us ‘til Thursday.

Andrew Harley: There's 408 of them. So yeah, there’s a few.

Carrie Tollefson: 408. We just took a break in December at the end of 2024, and we're still on this little bit of a break, and now we're going to kick it off here, coming up, like you said.

Andrew Harley: Coming back soon. Coming back soon.

Carrie Tollefson: Coming back soon. I just spoke about Gwen -- I loved Gwen's. All of them. I think that just her story is so cool. And her passion, we can see that, right? I mean, just following her on social, you can see it day in and day out, how hard she works and how she brings her family along into it. Meb, you guys know Meb. We always have fun, because Meb and I have been racing together since high school. Shalane’s on there. I mean, without sounding like I get to get anybody, because that’s not the case -- I've been very fortunate to be able to call upon a lot of agents, and say, “Hey, can I get your person?” One of the things that I never wanted to do as a podcaster was bug the athletes, because there's a lot of people now asking. So I'm not always the one that's going to get the first interview after a big results, but I will get it, eventually, and I'll do it on the athlete time. Like I always say to them, “Please say no to me. If you want to say no to someone, say no to me, because we'll come back when the time is right.” So, yeah, there are so many fun episodes, but I just think what you're going to find are a lot of 30-minute episodes. I don't love to go too long. And you take it up, take us out in your ears. And then I find a lot of people are like, “Well, wait, I want to dig a little deeper.” So I'll either go to another episode of Carrie's, or I'll go to another podcast, which is great. There's room for everyone, and I want to help all the podcasters and people to learn more about running.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I feel the same way. And I was listening to your episode with Alexi Pappas, and she had just launched a new podcast—

Carrie Tollefson: I love Alexi.

Andrew Harley: --and you spent 10 minutes just talking about her new podcast on your podcast. And I feel the same way. I'm not threatened by another podcast. Please, go listen to everybody. There's a lot of great shows out there. Come to us for the triathlon coaching, that's all we ask. Go to everybody else for what they do. And I just, genuinely -- as a podcast host, as a podcast producer, television producer -- in your interviews, the way you clearly know the person, the way you care about the person, the way you relate to them is very unique. It's very special. And you can tell, oh, you're not just a host of a running show that's poking these people to get them. You have relationship with these people, because you are in the running culture alongside of them. It's almost like a peer-to-peer relationship. And that comes through the interviews in a really cool way, because you can tell they know you, they trust you, and they open up with you, and they're really, really good conversations.

Carrie Tollefson: It maybe is the being the daughter of a hairdresser. You can chat about anything.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, it's a gift, right? Being able to talk to people well is, honestly, a gift. But we're very excited to partner with you for the RunDot Podcast, and that will be launching this year, for sure. We're still nailing down the exact start date. There's a lot of exciting stuff happening behind the scenes of RunDot right now that I can't talk about. But the podcast will be launching soon, as in within months. Carrie, as you were introduced to our brand and getting to know us, what made RunDot just a brand that you felt confident partnering with and working with moving forward?

Carrie Tollefson: Well, first of all, Jeff's been on the podcast before, as well, with Meb, and I just felt like there is just -- they're genuinely excited about the brand. And like I said, Meb and I have gone back for years, and I think if he can align with something like RunDot, I should as well. And so I'm excited about that aspect of it, is being able to dig into it, learn a little bit more about it, but also, again, be able to share with your athletes, that you already have at TriDot and RunDot, the joy that this sport has given me -- and also the heartache and the ups and downs. We'll work through that together. Everyone has it. Every single person, every single athlete. And I call everyone an athlete. We all have an athlete in us. Some people are like, “Oh, she's not talking about me. I'm not an athlete. I just go out there, and I'm a weekend warrior.” No, you're an athlete. You all have an athlete in you. And so I want just people, if they're going to spend time away from home, away from their kids, away from their jobs, and they're trying to get the best out of their bodies, let's go do it right. And so if this is a way for me to encourage you to put me in your ears and be inspired by another story, let's do it. Let's have some fun.

Andrew Harley: Absolutely love that. So, Carrie, we promised the people, we're 56 minutes in -- again, two podcasters, we can talk a long time. We promised the people we would close the show, before closing the show, we would hear your 4 pre-race must-do things. Do these 4 things to have success on your race. And so I'm going to step out of the way. I'll give a comment or two, I'm sure, because I'm a podcaster. But we'll go through these a little quicker than intended, but I want to leave our people with the intended learning opportunity. So Carrie, what is—

Carrie Tollefson: These are the top 4 that came to mind.

Andrew Harley: Obviously, more things to do. But I asked Carrie, I was like, for our triathletes, for our runners, whether they're going out for a sprint triathlon to an IRONMAN, a 5K to a marathon, if you have a race coming up, what are just the things you have to do before the race from Olympian Carrie Tollefson? So, Carrie, what is your pre-race must-do number 1?

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Visualization. I think visualizing is something that is very undervalued, and people think that that's only for the people that are winning the race. And I don't think that's the case at all. Visualization, for me, helped me. I wasn't always winning races, but it helped me get to the start line feeling a little bit more confident about all the work I had done and the task at hand. So I think that if you can think about your race, know the course, know where you're planning to get your fueling, know what you're going to be doing in between transitions. For runners, knowing how you're going to work through the different mileage. That, for me, just being able to shut my eyes, and I usually did it 10 days out, and every night before I went to bed, I would just take 5 to 10 minutes. And it became a prayer for me, because I'm a Christian, so I usually was like, “Please, Lord, let me do this.” But also, if you're not one to pray, that's cool, too, but you can walk yourself through race day. And usually, it was when I was laying in bed, or if I just needed some quiet time, I would just shut my eyes and think about the course, think about all the training that I did to make it right, positive word cues that I was going to use during the race to get me through each lap. I mean, I use those during the mile. You can use those during a marathon. I used it during my marathons. My husband's an IRONMAN triathlete. He used things -- yep, just like most of you listening. So, yeah, I think visualization is one thing that we don't use, and we can use that throughout our regular life, as well. I use it when I, before I get up and speak. I just did a big commencement speech, my first one ever, and I definitely visualize seeing that. So you can use it. I use it before the red light goes on when I'm doing all of my big broadcasts. And so it sounds funny at times to train your brain, but we definitely need to train our brain.

Andrew Harley: I think where I'm very good at doing this is for moments where I feel a little intimidated by the moment. So if it's a big A-race, like an IRONMAN or a 70.3 where I want a PR. When I did Escape from Alcatraz, for example, I was very intimidated by that course, and jumping off the ferry in the San Francisco Harbor, all that jazz. And so in my training leading up to that, I was doing a lot of visualization to try to put myself in that moment before I was actually in that moment. And then when you get to the moment, it's not the first time you've seen the moment. And where I think I could be better about it is doing it more often just in big training sessions or for races that maybe aren't an A-race, that are local. But yeah, absolutely love this. As a tip before your race, visualize the race all the way through, start to finish. Carrie, what is your pre-race must-do number 2?

Carrie Tollefson: Okay, so I'm thinking -- when you asked me this, I was thinking more of road races, and again, triathlons. Obviously, you have to get to the race. And parking, for me, is always a nightmare.

Andrew Harley: It's always different, every race. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: It's always different. So when you're asking me this, I'm like, please figure out your parking strategy. It's almost as important as figuring out your start line. So one of the things, and this will transition into tip 3, but if you know where you can park -- and great if you get Rockstar. Front row parking, that's great. Obviously, it's nice to have things, to be able to run back to your car if you need it or whatever. But if you don't do that, one of the tips that I have is find parking, maybe a half mile or a mile away, where you can throw on your stuff in your backpack, or in your bag, and be able to set it down when you get there. But use that half mile or mile for part of your warm-up. So tip number 3 is always warm up for a race, even if your someone that is thinking, “Oh, I’m just going to warm up into a race, during it,” I still think it is important for us all to warm up. So first is visualize, second was parking – find parking, whether it’s right up close, or even if it’s a little ways away. And if it’s a little ways away, then tip three is warming up, into the race, use that further parking spot away, that you would use – did that sentence come alright? I don’t know if it did. But use that parking spot that’s further away and warm up into the race. I always think it’s important to warm up.

Andrew Harley: And get a warm-up. Yeah, get a warm-up. I love you bringing up the parking bit, because that's something you don't think about until you're finally driving to the race. And for some races, it's easy. Some races have plenty of parking close by, whatever, whatever. Some races, it's challenging. I've had races where a family member will just drop me off close to transition, and then they'll worry about finding the parking, if it's going to be a little stressful.

Carrie Tollefson: That’s great, if you have that.

Andrew Harley: I've taken taxis, especially when I'm racing in a foreign country, and we might not be staying close to the race. I might take a taxi down there, and my family will meet me down later. But yeah, having that figured out beforehand is just, you want as few variables to sort through on the day of the race as possible.

Carrie Tollefson: Oh, and you just get so crabby when you can't get a spot.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. You don't want to spike your heart rate before the actual race starts, just because you're stressed about parking.

Carrie Tollefson: From stress. But that's where spiking the heart rate for a warm-up is good.

Andrew Harley: It's good in the warm-up.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, it's good in the warm-up, but at your own timing, not because of parking.

Andrew Harley: So we have, Carrie, a TriDot podcast episode -- and I want to say it's episode 40-something, 30-something. We did it years ago -- where we were talking about pre-race warm-up, and we should probably refresh the conversation because it's been a few years. But I remember the coach on the episode telling us the longer the event -- so half-Ironman, Ironman, marathon, half-marathon -- the less of a warm-up you need, and the shorter the event, the longer you will warm up. Because a sprinter, for example, is going to warm up longer than a marathoner. You've raced a lot of distances over your career, from the 800 all the way up to the marathon. Did you find that to be true for your run career?

Carrie Tollefson: I mean, maybe. Now that I look back, I probably did spend a little bit more time doing drills and strides and things for a 1500 meter and a 5K. But I do find that no matter what distance we're doing, it's important for us to warm up. And I think, obviously, you're not going to go and run 5 miles before you do a marathon, unless that's some sort of training and the marathon that you're racing is more like a training run. But one of the things that I don't love is that some people just go right to the start line, and maybe they're running a 5-hour marathon, which is great, but they're cold as I'll get out, and they just start the race. And I think that it's a little daunting when you start the race, and you're all of a sudden super excited, and it might not be because of the pace, it might be because of what's around you, but it's foreign, at that moment, to feel your heart rate so high. So I try to tell people, even if you're standing in your corral, jog a little bit, do some high knees, some kick butts, if it's really tight in there where you can't move, just to be able to get your body going and then calm down a little bit before the gun goes off. Even if it's just a minute or two, calm yourself. Do a little visual-- How come I can't say it?

Andrew Harley: Visualization. Gotcha.

Carrie Tollefson: Visualization, and then take off. But if you're running a 5k, I definitely think some strides and some drills are important, no matter what pace you're going. Because it is hard off the gun. Off the line you are running hard, or walking hard. It's going to be over pretty fast.

Andrew Harley: So, Carrie, to close down our main set, what is your pre-race must-do number 4?

Carrie Tollefson: Port-a-potty. Know where the port-a-potties are.

Andrew Harley: No joke.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes. Or wherever you can find a bathroom. It is the worst nightmare when you cannot go that final time. And obviously, in those longer races, that's part of the whole planning, is being able to get in and out. And I feel like I have some world records on being able to get in and out of a port-a-potty fast.

Andrew Harley: That's another podcast episode that I can't wait to have with you. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: It is. And even fun conversations with the person next to you. But, for the sake of time, let's just say: find your bathroom stop before you know the race is going to go off. Because there might be a long line, there might not be toilet paper -- all of those things that you really want to have in that final stop, we need to know in advance how it's going to happen on race day.

Andrew Harley: So it's basically: visualize your race ahead of time, have a parking plan, have a warm-up plan, have a potty plan.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes!

Andrew Harley: I love it.

[Transition Sound Effect]

Andrew Harley: For the cool down of our show, we love closing the show with a question from an audience member, from one of the athletes in our audience. And we pull these from a number of different places. And Carrie, the question from the audience I have pulled for you today -- running related, of course. Running related for you. We have an athlete named Emily, who wants to know how many run shoes do we really need in a shoe rotation? She says she often hears it said, ‘it's good to have more than one running shoe that you use in your training,’ but just doesn't really have a reference point for is that 2 shoes? Is that 8 shoes? How different do they need to be? We could do a whole podcast on this, for sure. But just real quick, Carrie, what's the quick answer from you of what do you look for an athlete to have in a run shoe rotation?

Carrie Tollefson: I like to have my race shoe that I'm hoping to race in, or one that I've raced in before, to have that idea, especially when you're running marathons and road events like that. If you're a track athlete, spikes, obviously. Your workout racer, which is what you would race a marathon or a 5k, 10k on the roads in. But when it comes to trainers, I definitely think you want to have a couple different pairs. And for me, as a person that's worked in running stores over my lifetime, 400 to 600 is what they say in most trainers. Not a super shoe necessarily, but in most trainers. I always thought of having someone come in and get a new pair at 300 miles. So then you have about 100 miles, or so, to work in your new pair. So I did always wait till the very end of that shoe life. I would always have another new-er pair, and then I always had a couple different kinds. Now, the longer I go through this life, and the more mature I come in this sport, I have found that my feet, actually, have been healthier wearing different models. So not just sticking to one model and having last season's color, and this season's color, and then trying to -- I find having a shoe that I wear, maybe -- and I don't really pay too close attention right now, because I'm not really training for anything right yet -- but finding a shoe that maybe you like to go long in, and then a lighter pair for recovery days, maybe it's not quite as stiff or quite as supportive. So you really work your feet, and you get them really strong. I find if you get into one type of shoe, and you're spending every run in it, your foot gets pretty rigid, and it gets pretty stuck in that pair. And then it fires up when you have a day where you're in a different shoe. So start working those muscles. And for me, I like a neutral shoe. I like a shoe where -- I do pronate pretty heavily, so I do like a stability shoe, but I try to mix it up a little bit and make sure my feet are guessing.

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