What Can Age Groupers Learn from Professional Triathletes?

TriDot Podcast Episode 348

What Can Age Groupers Learn from Pro Triathletes

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. Today on the show, we are asking a big question. What can we, as age groupers, learn from professional triathletes? We see them on the Instagram. We see their Strava files. We see what they're capable of on the racecourse. What things do they do that we can learn from, and what should we maybe just leave alone for them and them alone to do? Super excited to hear all that and more with our coaches. Today, joining us is 4-time IRONMAN World Champion Mirinda Carfrae. She's the co-founder and coach of Salty Bears Racing. Also with us is 6-time IRONMAN World Champion Mark Allen, who coaches his athletes through Mark Allen Coaching. Rinny, Mark, welcome back to the show.

Mirinda Carfrae: Thanks, Andrew. Good to be here.

Mark Allen: Good to see you, Andrew. Here we are. Let's rock and roll.

Andrew Harley: Let’s rock and roll. I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People, Captain of the Middle of the Pack, and today's resident age grouper alongside of our IRONMAN legends. Today on the show, like always, we'll ask our warm-up question, and then we'll get into the meat of our main set conversation, before winding things down by asking our coaches an audience question on the cool down. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world-class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm-up.

Andrew Harley: Across all of television, there are a ton of engaging reality competition TV shows. Everybody has their favorite one that they watch and plenty that they don't watch, because there's too many of them, frankly. My question, for our warmup question today, is if you could see one professional triathlete, who is currently in the race field, on a competition reality TV show, what athlete would you pick, and what show would you want to see them on? Rinny, over to you.

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, I was trying to think of reality TV shows. Naked and Afraid came to mind right away. I'm like, okay, we can't do that one. I'm going to sideline that one. And then I'm thinking, okay, let's switch, and what athlete is the most interesting or intriguing? And for me, it's Taylor Knibb. I feel like she always comes up with the most interesting thoughts, observations. And so Taylor Knibb is my athlete. And I think something like Survivor would be really cool to see her on. So there's my pick.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I would be curious to see -- and Naked and Afraid would fit this bill as well, but Survivor is a more wholesome choice, Rinny, so I'll back you there. But to see, with just the endurance that our pros have, the grit that they have, the next level pain thresholds and ability to be uncomfortable -- would it be a challenge for them like it would for a lot of other folks? In some ways, I'm sure yes. But in a lot of ways, I think that Taylor would do just fine on Survivor, don't you think?

Mirinda Carfrae: Absolutely. And I think, yeah, being a professional triathlete or pretty much any professional athlete that your job is basically withstanding pain for one moment longer, one moment longer, and tricking your mind. And so I think all of those tricks, certainly in IRONMAN and long course triathlon racing, would serve you well. I think the question would be what's the price first? How worth it is this? Would be the one caveat.

Andrew Harley: Sure. I would love to see, I've said it on the show before, but I'll double down on this. I would love to see Sam Long on Dancing with the Stars. He's got the personality, I think, to just really cut loose and have fun with that show. He's got that tall, lanky frame that I'm just curious to see what it could do on a dance floor. My other thought, here, is to see the Norwegian crew that all trains together and famously does what they do at the races together -- to see them on something Family Feud where they have to work together as a unit in a totally different way. Mark Allen, what's this answer for you?

Mark Allen: You stole my answer. I definitely would—

Andrew Harley: Did I?

Mark Allen: I definitely would want to see Kristian Blummenfelt and his crew, just to see what the heck are they doing with their training? You know, how are they preparing? They all seem to be very adaptable. They are able to just take whatever is going on on race day and mold it into something that works for them. And so I think, you know, any reality show where there's a real challenge, obviously, and maybe throw some curve balls at them, I think they would be really adaptable and good at it. And they seem to work really well as a team. How does that work, not only for them, but how can that work for, as we're trying to find out here, for age group athletes? You know, I don't actually, I haven't really watched any reality shows in about 150 years, so I don't know which one would be best for them to be on. I really like that idea of Sam Long on Dancing with the Stars, because not only would it be fun to watch, but you’re guaranteed he's going to have the most outlandish outfit on for that program.

Andrew Harley: Yep, plenty of pink.

Mark Allen: He comes in as a close second on that. I like that idea.

Andrew Harley: Well, great responses from the both of you. We're going to throw this out to our audience, like we always do. If you're watching us on YouTube, comment below with your answer to the warm-up question. If you're watching us on Spotify video, same thing, comment below right there in the Spotify portal. Or find us on social media -- Instagram, Facebook. We will post this question out there. Want to hear from you, what pro would you want to see on a reality show, competition show? And what show are you choosing? Can't wait see what you have to say.

Announcer: Let’s go.

Andrew Harley: On to today's main set, and Mark and Rinny, you both are my first picks for this episode. I'm so curious to hear just your insights into the pro field. Both of you, in this current part of your triathlon journey, are working with IRONMAN as members of the broadcast team throughout the year. You're interfacing quite a bit with the modern-day pros. You're interfacing quite a bit with their coaching teams, learning what they're doing in their training, what they're not doing in their training, how ready are they for race day. And so I'm curious, as you're preparing for all the broadcasts and as you're rubbing shoulders the people in the industry, do you feel pretty in tune with what the pros are doing, even though you're not in the pro field anymore yourselves? Rinny?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, I'm like, who goes first? So with my preparation for all of the broadcasts, you know, I'll check Instagram. I don't reach out to the athletes personally, just because I feel like leading into the race -- I mean, I was there before -- you know, another email or another question, you just don't want to have to deal with it. So if anything, I actually reached out to the ProTriNews boys. They seem to talk to everybody all the time. So generally, you know, I'll reach out to them ahead of races and just sort of, “What's going on? Is there anything untoward, or anything, anyone hiding any injuries? Anything that you would be of interest for the broadcast?” And so those guys are amazing resource. I also listen to their podcasts, because they do have good insights leading into the race with that stuff. But yeah, I mean, keeping your finger on the pulse and just watching the races throughout the year I think is important to know what may be coming. And sometimes it's impossible. I did the broadcast on the weekend of Aux en Provence, and Michele Bortolamedi, who I butchered his name like 15 times in the broadcast, he won the race and broke Kristian Blummenfelt's record. So that's a new name, certainly a breakthrough performance for him. He beat Rico Bogen. So sometimes even though you do a lot of the research, you have these outliers that maybe aren't favorites to win, that sort of come in and flip the script anyway. Usually you're pretty good with some of the favorites, but there's always someone else waiting in the wings, and that's what keeps us in our toes and keeps it exciting.

Andrew Harley: That's why we run the race, right? That's why we hold the race. You didn't know what's going to happen. I love ProTriNews. They do such a great job with their show. And just, in a fun way, shining a light on the professional field and what's happening in the professional field. I love, in the triathlon ecosystem, there's so many different great shows out there, and they're definitely out there hyping up the pro field, talking about the sport. Our niche, our thing, we try to coach people through our show. So yeah, go listen to them, go listen to us, and you get a lot of good stuff. Mark, every time I'm with you at the races, you seem so clued-in to who the competitors are, who's got a good chance that day, how people are looking. How much scouting do you do on what the current pros are up to?

Mark Allen: Yeah, you know, like Rinny said, it's hard to actually keep a pulse on all of the pros at this point, because every race has somebody that shows up on the podium -- or most of the races have somebody that shows up on the podium that maybe you might've heard their name, but you've actually never seen them in action. And so there's, you know, there really is nothing like watching the stream of a race, or being at a race and watching them up close and personal, to really get an understanding of who they are, where their strengths are, and if somebody -- like when Rico Bogen won 70.3 Worlds in Finland, everybody's like -- not everybody. A lot of people knew who he was, and a lot of people had never heard his name before. So it was like, okay, who is this guy, and why did he do so well in this race? And it was a race where it was cold, it was damp, and so it's like, “Okay, note to self, Rico Bogen is really good if the weather's shitty.” Maybe he's not going to be quite the—

Andrew Harley: That's a skill set.

Mark Allen: Maybe he's not going to be quite the same if it's a hot, humid race, I don't know, but time will tell. And there's nothing like going down to the transition area when the pros are putting everything in their racks and getting ready, and you just sort of get that vibe from certain people. Like, okay, this person is new, I've never heard of them, but you see their body development, you see sort of their energy. And another thing that I love is when there's press conferences that we can go to. And there's always a few people up there that maybe I've never really heard before. Like last year in Kona, they had Solveig up on the stage at the press conference, and I when I saw her walk in, I go, “She's got what it takes to win this race.” And when I said that to myself, I thought, “You know, in a few years, maybe.” So she goes out and she wins it anyway, on the first time ever, first time out. And she's already proven this year that she's the real deal. You know, she's not a flash in the pan. She's very solid. And so, you know, all of these little notes-to-self sort of keep adding up. Again, as Rinny, I don't follow the people personally. I'm not at training camps with them. It really comes down to what I see in the races, watching the streams.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, it's so interesting to me just how attuned you guys are to the look of a triathlete. Because to me, when I see the pro field go by -- or if we're in Kona, or we're on site, IRONMAN Village, in a race, and we see them all walking around leading up to the race, or you're looking at the pro panel -- they all look stupid fit to me. And Mark, I think it was when I was reading the Iron War book about your and Dave's famous race, that there was some passages in there where people were reporting, “Oh, man, Dave's looking like this one week out from the race,” and, “Ah, well, Mark just showed up in Kona and he looks like this.” And people were like making comments about, just physically, how you two looked going into that race. And I'm like, all these pros look so stupid fit. How do you tell the difference between Solvig versus Taylor up on the panel, but you guys are just so in-tune as pros in this. And I feel like just, in the last couple of years -- I've been in the sport now for 12, 13 years, and it just seems like there's such an acceleration right now, where every year the tech is getting more and more insane and sophisticated. The way they're training is getting just that much more dialed in. Race times across the board are getting faster and faster on the men's and women's side every single year. So what, just from your perspectives, being much more in tune with what the pros are doing than I am, what are you seeing, and what trends are you hearing about that's just helping the sport accelerate in the last couple years? Mark?

Mark Allen: I would say one of the biggest things at the moment is just the nutrition. The amount of calories that the athletes can take in and absorb. Rinny, I'm sure, will echo this. We were in Kona at an IRONMAN, we were not limited -- our speed wasn't limited by our fitness. We were fit to go faster, but we couldn't keep gas in the tank, because the absorption rate of the products that we had back, even in Rinny's era, were nowhere near what they are today. And so that's been one of the biggest advances and one of the things that -- a lot of people are experimenting with how many calories can I get in before it's too much, and we get backed up just like everybody did back in our day. I think there's still going to be an evolution on that, as far as, okay, now it's carb heavy. Will it sort of the pendulum swing back a little bit, and we'll be talking about products that enable you to keep fat-burning going a little bit longer in those endurance races? So that you get this combination of stimulated fat burning along with that ability. When that maxes out and you're going a lot harder than fat metabolism, you are able to get those calories back in. That, for me, that's the biggest thing that I'm seeing as the latest thing that's helping them to go just crazy fast.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I love -- our friends at Precision Fuel & Hydration do a really good job of measuring this with our athletes. And so after a big event, like Kona or IRONMAN 70.3 World Championships, or very recently, there was a pro that is sponsored by PF&H that won a huge 250-mile ultra trail run. And they always they'll follow up with those pros after the race, and they'll log, very scientifically, how many grams of carbs, how much sodium do they have in their fluids throughout the race, and they'll post it to Instagram. And it's so interesting to see, and the numbers are way more than my gut can tolerate as an age grouper. That everybody is clearly working on getting more fuel in, getting more fuel in, getting more fuel in, which takes practice. Rinny, are there any other trends, that you've seen, that have really just helped these pros in the last couple years do what they're doing?

Mirinda Carfrae: I think what Mark said is, I echo that. I think when I was racing, I was trying to get in 75 grams an hour on the bike, instead of super compensating, or that was sort of high. And Solveig was able to take on and process 120 grams of carbohydrate. When you're taking in that much, you can just work at a higher percentage of your threshold for a much longer. And so it's just, the game has completely changed. I think that, for me, highlights the biggest change in the sport. Of course, super shoes have come in the last number of years. I think that's a huge benefit, the fatigue resistance by training in those super shoes, but also the race day. The 30K, hit the wall, your legs are smoked -- it's not happening until much later in the day, if it does even happen at all. And then they're able to back up and race more, as well. So I think that's a big one. I think every athlete, or pretty much all of the pros, are spending time in the wind tunnel, whereas wind tunnel was almost reserved to a few. Maybe 5% of the pro field was spending time in the wind tunnel and trying to find gains there. Suit technology, there's so many little things that are improving year on year. And I feel like it's a combination of a lot of things, but the nutrition is the biggest one for me.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, it's interesting to hear you both say that, too. And it's, I think as an age grouper, it's good to hear that as we're seeing all these different -- and there's several brands that are doing a great job with the science behind their products these days. And it's great to hear that that's not gimmicky. That, in most cases, that's legit, and that's actually helping push the sport forward in a number of ways. Everybody talks about this training method, and that training method, and these pros are doing this, and those pros are doing that. And to have you both say, “Yeah, fueling, number 1 thing,” is very interesting to hear. What would you both say, as we start sliding into what we, as age groupers, can learn from the pros -- one, I guess, fuel, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit -- but what would you say is the gap, or difference, in performance ability between a professional triathlete and even a competitive amateur, which you both coach some very competitive amateurs. Is it actually pretty close, or is it just, physically, those athletes are on a whole other level? What do you think, Rinny?

Mirinda Carfrae: I mean, I think the best age groupers are age groupers because they weren't good enough, or didn't have the means, or the time, or it wasn't a time in their life where they could step over and be professionals. I think there's a physical component, but I think it's such a interesting question, because are we talking a competitive amateur that's in the 60 to 65 age group? Are we talking a competitive amateur that's in the 30--

Andrew Harley: Yeah, true.

Mirinda Carfrae: --to 35 age group that maybe wasn't quite good enough to be a professional, or maybe they chose career or family over leaning into professional sports, because I definitely think there are maybe some amateurs who picked up the sport later in life who probably could have been great professionals if they had found the sport, or maybe not chosen a university or a normal working career over a professional athlete career. So I mean, I think that that's an interesting question. And you certainly see some of the older age groupers who should have been professional athletes. They're, physically, specimens, amazing specimens, and they found the sport later in life, and they're phenomenal in their age group. I don’t know if I answered the question as well as I could have.

Andrew Harley: The whole time I've been in the sport -- I'm 38 right now. When we started the TriDot podcast, I was 32. And when I started in triathlon, I was 29. And so at my age, as a male in particular, I've always been where, when I go to an IRONMAN event, the guys winning my age group are often extremely close if not right there with a middle of the pack professional time, just because they are athletically that gifted, and they work that hard, but they also have a day job or something. So in some corners of the sport, it's extremely close. And like you said, in others, it might be a little farther away. But very interesting. Mark, do you have any additional insight to share, there?

Mark Allen: I'd agree with Rinny on all that. I would say, probably, top age groupers, they are probably divided into two classes. One are those who have the genetic ability. They could have been a pro, but they didn't have the opportunity for whatever reason in their life circumstance. And the other half are those who maybe don't have quite the same genetic toolbox as a top pro, because the differences at the very top end are very small, as we all know. And so just a little bit of an extra genetic edge, you throw on top of that all the smart training, and technology, and all of the goodies that people, whether you're a pro or an age grouper, can incorporate into getting ready for races, that becomes a factor. I mean, think about it this way. Michael Phelps, we all know who that badass is, right? He says, “Well, I did all these yards in the pool, and these hours, and that's the reason I did what I did.” I'm like, dude, please. Look at your levers, right? You have levers that nobody else on this planet has. And so there is that genetic element to it in triathlon. Of course, we look at somebody like Kristian Blummenfelt, and he blows that genetic stereotype away. He's not the same body type as most of the others that are performing at the top level, men or women. And so there's a lot of ways to skin that cat.

Mirinda Carfrae: He's got a pretty big engine, though. He’s got a pretty big engine.

Mark Allen: Well, he's got the massive engine that overcomes any kind of body type thing that he has going on. But yeah, so the difference between pro and age grouper, again, part of it’s genetics, and part of it is life circumstance.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, no, very, very helpful. So I'm curious to hear -- my next question on our run sheet is what can we, as age groupers, emulate from the way that pros train? But just in the moment, I'm thinking, before we get to that, how different is the training of each individual pro? And I know you guys aren't privy to the exact details of what every major player in the game today is doing, but just knowing the general landscape, there's this training group doing this, and that training group doing that, and these people work with this coach, and Tim worked with the Julie Dibbins crew there in Boulder where you guys area, and so you know what that crew is doing in their training. Are the pros all doing similar, very slightly different versions of the same thing, or is everybody's training dramatically different heading into a big race, depending on what coach they're working with?

Mirinda Carfrae: I think you just got to look at the Norwegian guys, right? The volume that they put in is just insane. And then there are some athletes that are just super high volume and pushing tempo threshold work all the time. I feel like a week out from Kona, the Norwegian boys did a 30k run on the Queen K, and I ran like 75 minutes, easy, like a weekend before, and a proper taper. And then you look at someone like Kat Matthews, I think she's an interesting case in that I don't think she runs more than about 50 kilometers a week. And again, I'm not privy to exactly what she does week in week out, but it's not crazy volume. It's very low on the run, and it's not 40 hours of training a week. It's probably more like 25. So that's 15-hour difference. It's massive. So yeah, she's one of the best women in the sport. Versus Kristian, and Gustav, and Casper, they're the best men in the sport. So that's a really interesting difference. And I think when I train most, I feel like a lot of people were right in the middle, like around 30 hours a week. They would have a proper taper. There were always outliers. But yeah, I think every athlete's different, and there's more than one method that can be successful. I don't know how the Norwegians are doing what they're doing. It's mind boggling.

Andrew Harley: Mark, any thoughts?

Mark Allen: I also am not privy to the specifics of what people are doing. A number of years ago when “the Norwegian method”, quote/unquote, became a thing right after COVID, I was listening to a podcast from their coach, and he was explaining what they were doing. And I thought, there must be some super-secret thing that they're doing that we weren't doing when I was competing. And basically, they were doing things to determine what volume of training can we do before our bodies are not recovering? How many calories can we take in per hour before things are backing up? What intensity levels can we hold for long distances before we blow up? How hot can our core temperature get before performance dips? Everything he was saying was exactly the same type of stuff that we were trying to figure out. There was nothing new or groundbreaking in it, but the difference is that they now have ways of measuring all of these variables so they can really dial it in. And because of the ability to measure and correct immediately on the spot in workouts, they're able to dial in the training so it becomes much more efficient. I, too, as Renny has said, am mind boggled how -- what I have seen and heard of the Norwegians -- how they're not getting injured all the time. I mean, Kristian is like bulletproof. I don't know if I've ever heard of any major thing that has held him back injury-wise. Gustav, clearly, is a little bit more of thoroughbred, and he's had a lot of injury stuff with Achilles that he's had to deal with. But I think there's probably, each athlete has their sort of signature thing that they're doing that might be different than somebody else. I would say, in general, one of the things that lot of the athletes are doing, and I think Tim and Rinny were sort of the forefathers, foremothers, of this, and it's incorporating a lot of movement workouts. Getting your movement patterns correct so that you're efficient, so that you have balance, so that your core is strong. And that's one of the biggest things that I know a lot of pros are doing. I don't know if they all are, but it's something that has made a huge impact on not only performance, but durability over time. And that's also something that age groupers can incorporate -- working on balance, working on movement, working on core strength as opposed to just swim, bike, and run a lot.

Andrew Harley: Well Mark, you're getting us into our next big question, and really the big question of this show is, from what you see the pros doing, and from the things that we know various pros are doing and having success with, what are the things that we, as age groupers, can emulate and should emulate to copy the best of the best? And so you're saying one of those is really paying attention to our movement patterns, being efficient in our technique. That makes a whole lot of sense. Rinny, what are the first couple things that come to your mind? When you're working with your athletes, you're talking to them, what should they be copying that you were doing in your professional career?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit, and one of them is just being consistent. I mean, the professional athletes don't miss a session, ever. Unless they're on really sick and their coach is like, “You need to take a day or two off, or this is not going to go well,” they don't miss a session. I think age groupers, you know, they have real lives. So as much as they can limit missing sessions here and there, that is going to serve them probably more than anything else. We talked about nutrition earlier. I think that's a good one, but practicing that and training your gut. So I think it's around 8 weeks out, you want to start, on your brick sessions, increasing the amount of carbohydrates you're taking every session. Maybe you start at 75, and then you build up to maybe trying to take on 120. You won't probably do that on race day, but if you can train your gut to take on more calories, then it's going to serve you well come race day, when your ability to absorb and process carbohydrate is enhanced. That's one. Of course, movement and stuff like that takes more time, so that's good for some athletes, maybe not good for others. But if you can incorporate even 15 minutes a couple of times a week, I think that can be helpful. Yeah, Mark, I'll let you go from here. Feel like there are a few good ones.

Mark Allen: You know, the pros, because they have all day to think about this stuff, they have all day to take care of all these little details. And little details add up. So, let's look at a race day. One of the things that always stands out to me is that I get to the transition areas early, and pretty much all of the pros are there getting their stuff set up early. They're not rushed. They're keeping the start of their day as low pressure and low stress as possible. They're not showing up last minute. They're not rushing to get everything put together. They've practiced their transitions -- that's free time. And you see, every now and then, a pro who blew it and didn't do something right, and it's glaring when a pro has a bad transition compared to all the other ones. They've also thought about their race pacing. Pretty much every pro knows that the race is going to be won on the run. You can't, other than maybe Taylor Knibb, you just can't out-bike everybody fast enough, far enough, to outlast them on -- especially in an IRONMAN -- on a long run, on a marathon. So, they stick to their pacing in the race. They know what their limits are. And we saw two that didn't quite get it right last year in Kona. Lucy blowing up, and then Taylor looking like she's going to win, and then she blows up. So when pros make mistakes, it turns into something huge, because they're on the world stage, we're all looking at it. And so that's something that we can learn both directions from as age groupers. What's working? What are they doing that's working? Even if you're not going to be in a wind tunnel, watch the -- look at how the pros set up their bikes. Where are their water bottles? How are they -- nobody's doing a flying leap onto their bike anymore, because they'd knock the water bottles off on the back if they tried to do that. And so everybody's changed the way they transition. And so look at all of these little simple things, because those little pieces will really add up over the course of your race day as an age grouper.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, no, super helpful. Rinny, I'm curious -- to back up just a quick step, because you were talking about training your gut to take in more carbs and doing that X amount of time out from race day. Is this something that you have your athletes practice throughout the year? Or do you specifically, like when they start getting closer to the race, begin having them focus on that?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, well with TriDot, it's built in a race rehearsal at 2 and 4 weeks out, so we definitely dial it in then, but it depends on the athlete. And we, over time, sort of figure out what the best formula for that athlete is. And I think if I have a more high-performing athlete, I look more at seeing if I can get more carbohydrates in them. If it's more, maybe an older athlete, or an athlete that's sort of a mid-pack, just want to have a solid day all around, I'm not trying to load them up on carbs, because that goes down so quickly, and that's actually one of the things I definitely recommend not doing. Because I think people realize -- Solveig, she's taking 120 grams an hour. And I had one of my athletes like, “That's what I'm going to do.” And she did a trail race, and her belly was just, she's like, “I was so bloated.” I'm like, “What were you thinking?” It takes time. You've got to practice and train your gut. And then even then, that's one of her talents. That is a unique ability, to be able to get in so many calories and absorb and process so many calories. So yeah, it's something that we definitely talk about. And we do the race rehearsals, of course, and that's something -- that's my main concern in race rehearsals. How did you feel? I have them run off the bike and don't take anything, and they should feel amazing. They should feel like they're flying for that 40-minute, or 20-minute, or whatever you have them run off the bike at, if they've nailed their nutrition on the bike. So yeah, we do that, but also depending on the athlete, we might start earlier to train their gut and try and see if we can get a little more in.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And I bring that one up -- I mean, both of you said a number of things that we could emulate and look at in their bike setups, and how they're transitioning, how they're carrying themselves on race morning. I highlight that one since both of you have said already on the show, the advances in nutrition have just been the biggest game changer. And so, okay, what can we emulate there? I still remember -- I don’t know. I was probably in the sport of triathlon for 2 or 3 years, and I was starting to go from just doing local sprints to doing more olympics and looking at my first 70.3s. And I saw some magazine had posted -- it was sponsored by whatever nutrition companies were sponsoring Alistair Brownlee at the time -- and they published, “Here's how Alistair fuels his races.” And it was the first time, as a fairly new triathlete -- especially new to going long enough that I needed to fuel -- that I'd seen, in print, here's how somebody's doing it. And so I didn't, it was a brand from the UK that wasn't available in the States at the time. But yeah, in my training, I go out and I start buying goo gels that are at the bike shop down the road. And I start trying to emulate what Alistair Brownlee is doing in his training. And it did not go well for me as a year 2, year 3 triathlete. And I know a lot better now, but this kind of gets us to our next topic. I'm curious, nutrition is one, but what are the pros doing in their training and their racing that we shouldn't emulate? That we should just say, “Hey, it's great that they can do that. That's great for them. It's great for Solveig that she can take 120 grams of carbohydrate per hour. I'm going to stick to my safe and tidy 60.” Or maybe try to bump it up to 70 and not flirt with anything higher. That's one of them. But what else would you put in that list of things that we should say, “Great for you guys, I shouldn't try that,” Mark?

Mark Allen: Well, the slippery slope is to get some kind of a hint of the type of training, the amount of training that a pro is doing, and think that I've got to try to get as close to that as I can, because they have all day to train and recover. If you have a, quote/unquote, “normal life,” you have probably a job. You probably have a family. You have these other commitments. So triathlon training is not the number one, top priority in your life. It can be such a damaging thing to try to train like a pro. Actually, even a lot of people who have been semi-pro, they quit their job, and all of a sudden they do have all the time in the world -- they don't do any better, because when they had a job, they actually had to cull their training back and not do crazy stuff. And all of a sudden, when they had all the time in the world, they overdid it. The biggest takeaway, I think, for an age grouper, is see the general theme of what somebody is doing, and maybe see, am I incorporating all of these pieces? But then do it at a level where you know that you can recover. Rinny said it so eloquently when she said, “Consistency is the number one thing.” If you're training consistently, whether you're a pro or an age grouper, you're going to optimize your performance. If you're sputtering along, stopping and starting because you overdo it, and then you got to back way off and miss workouts, and you get injured or you get sick -- if you're not training, you're not getting faster. So one of the other things is pros have coaches, and the few who are training on their own generally seem to be pretty up and down. I mean, look at Lionel Sanders. You know, he's kind of ping-ponged around with different philosophies and different ways of doing it, and he hasn't really landed on a coach that seems to mesh with his personality, and his body type, and stuff. But you look at others who have had, consistently had coaching throughout their careers -- Taylor Knibb, and look at the progression and performance that she's had. So that's another thing to think about, to have somebody who can be that voice of reason saying, “This is the structure. This is how we're going to do it. We'll modify as needed,” but it takes that guesswork out of it. And so that's, as much of the guesswork you can take out of it that you can, that's a good thing. And of course, that's one of the great things with TriDot, is if you don't have a coach, you still have this optimized engine that really helps you dial things in for your fitness levels.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, and as powerful as the tech is, the tech behind TriDot and RunDot both is just the best-case scenario minus a coach for an athlete. But we always say, company-wide, from Jeff Booher all the way down, we believe in TriDot plus a coach for all the reasons you mentioned and so much more -- just being able to add that personal touch, that personal knowledge, personal insight. Folks can get a flash of it from the podcast, listening to you guys, but it's always cool to know, when you hear a coach on the podcast, they can be your coach. You can work with them. Rinny and Mark, guess what? They coach athletes on TriDot. You can work with them. Their teams will be happy to add you to the mix, and it's such a good way to learn what you're learning today, but so much more and so much deeper from our wonderful coaches. So great answer there, Mark. Rinny, is there anything additional that you would point out, just in terms of, hey, I know the pros are doing X, Y, and Z, but maybe leave that on the shelf for them and don't touch it yourself?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, the biggest one was that nutrition one that we talked about earlier, that they're taking on X amount -- not something that you just want to jump in. Like I said, it takes years of practice, or you need to have a little bit of a talent at that or a cast-iron gut. Like Mark’s saying, don't do what Lionel has done. And I love Lionel to death, but yeah, I mean, I feel like that guy could have been much more than he was. Just the personality that he is, that we all love, I think has prevented him from being better than he could have been. Because it seemed like that year he got second, he came home, “I didn't win,” -- he threw everything out, and then started back at zero. It's always about changing 1% or 2%. So as you find success, you want to change little things that maybe can make you a little bit better. And I think that's something that we can learn from Lionel, is that maybe don't throw out everything. You've had some success -- or he has had a ton of success. He's a phenomenal talent. He's a really great human. But he's his own worst enemy in some regards, because he just, he gets inside his own head and makes crazy decisions. And I think that that's the reason, as Mark said, he's kind of ping-ponged around and had great results, bad results, been in the mix, not in the mix, and had injuries and a few different things. So yeah, again, back to the nutrition one -- just don't try and take 120 grams an hour in your race. Definitely practice first and maybe start at 60 or 70.

Andrew Harley: Something that hasn't come up, that I know you both can touch on quickly and then we can move on to our next question, is I think most age groupers don't realize all the things that professional triathletes do behind the scenes, away from their Instagram, to keep their body healthy and keep their body functioning well, in terms of movement and the strength training. What, of that, do you think is replicable for an age group or versus we just don't have the same time and bandwidth that a professional triathlete does? Rinny, what do you think?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, if you have the means to get a pair of Normatec boots or something like that, that's going to help. Massage, I think, is something that most professionals will get weekly or maybe even twice a week. I had a massage every single week when I was training, pretty much year-round. Tim had to have twice a week. His body just needed more. Of course, you don't have -- you know, that's expensive. And then, yeah, I mean, I know pros do all sorts of things. I know Mark had a lot of secret sauce, more mental side of things that he really worked on hard before races, because that really served him well. But yeah, as an amateur athlete, you can work on your mental game. You can lay in bed at night, meditate, rest. Take downtime. Make sure you're not going from meeting to training to bed and not taking a second to take a breath. So I think you've got to look at training as a whole, 360 view, right? Like, I need to make sure I have downtime. I need to make sure I get my food in. And so I think a coach can help you with that, but yeah, I think it's important to look at like your whole life and not just, okay, this is my triathlon life. I've got to get this in. Then I'm going to go to work, and I'm going to get this in. Then I'm going to spend five minutes with my family, or whatever you need to make sure you have a nice balance. Balance brings peace to an athlete, and then peace brings happiness, and I think the happy athletes race the best.

Andrew Harley: The happy athletes race the best. Mark, same question over to you. What practices that pros do for their mental game, for their physical well-being, do you try to carry over to your age groupers?

Mark Allen: Yeah, I think the mental piece is, it's big for pros and age groupers. And I wouldn't say that all pros are necessarily professional at that. Pros are really good at engaging coaches, getting really dialed in training, but I wouldn't say that all of them are as “professional,” quote/unquote, when it comes to prepping their mental game as they could be. The biggest piece for any athlete, especially age groupers, is figuring out how you're going to recover. Recovery is the secret sauce that elevates your performance. So if you're going to elevate your performance, you have to elevate your recovery, not necessarily elevate your training. And as Rinny said, it's fitting this into your life overall. If you're jamming all day with work, and you're jamming at home with all the commitments that you have there, and you're jamming with your training, where is your downtime? Where is your mental downtime space? Sleeping at night is one element of that sort of mental recovery, that refresh for your mind. But another piece is having some moments during the day where you're just, your brain is just idling. It's not going 90 miles an hour. And that's such a -- you know, they've actually shown that in research, that some of the recovery that your brain needs is that sort of daydreaming state that you have in the daytime. And we don't necessarily take that time. And it can be as simple as just going outside at sunset and just checking it out. Like, “Wow, look at that color in the sky and those clouds. That's amazing.” Or just when you're walking around town, being aware of the season that you're in and going, “Look at the flowers. That's pretty cool.” And just having that, *deep breath*. And I think a lot of athletes, one mistake they make in their, quote/unquote, “recovery” is they come home, and they're sitting on the couch, they're not training, but they're scrolling. And so you're still getting that dopamine hit. Your brain is just going, ka-chung, ka-chung, ka-chung, ka-chung. It's not just going--

Andrew Harley: Yeah, great point.

Mark Allen: And so you can sort of blend a lot of this together. If you get a massage, it's downtime. Your body's getting flushed. Your muscles are getting sort of put back into more of a supple state. Your nervous system is being calmed. You're not scrolling. You're taking time to just go, “Whew.” So a massage is like gold for some of that. If you have access to a gym and you can take a sauna, it's the same thing. You're in there, and you're quiet. You're getting that heat-hit from the sauna, which helps with recovery, especially for women. Heat is much better at helping recovery for women than cold. So, you know, ditch the cold plunge, go sit in a sauna, and have that downtime, even if it's 10 minutes or 15 minutes.

Andrew Harley: I'm hearing you both say that we all need to subscribe to the Tim O'Donnell twice-a-week massage schedule, if it fits our budget. Sounds great.

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, I wish we still did that. Those days are long gone.

Andrew Harley: So Mark, a little bit earlier, you gave some great insights into the race day, things that we can emulate that the pros do. I love your mention that the pros get there early. And they are not rushed. They have plenty of time to do what they need to do. They make sure that they have plenty of time on site. No point in spiking your heart rate while you're just getting ready in the morning. So Rinny, I'll kick this one to you and Mark can obviously add in if you have some other thoughts. But speaking specifically to race day, I think the motivations are different. The pros are out there trying to win some money and place as high as they can place. Most age groups are out there for a personal PR, personal satisfaction, maybe looking for a podium if you're competitive. So the motivations are a little different, but what can we, as age groupers, emulate from the pro field when it comes to having a good race day?

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, and I think when it comes to race day, expectations are high. You have your own expectations. This was, as a pro, or as an amateur, everyone's trying to, again, motivation is different, but everyone's in the same boat. They're trying to get to the finish line as quickly as they can. They've trained hard, they've invested time, and they really want a good result. And so I think the pros do a really good job of having that expectation and still being able to perform, whereas I think sometimes the age groupers, or some age groupers I’ve noticed, it'll crush them, that expectation, the weight of the expectation. And in the moment, they'll feel disappointed that they're not swimming as fast, or they didn't swim as fast they thought they could. And then it spirals. And I've noticed with some athletes that I coach, if we just focus on doing the best you can in the moment, and if they can stay with that all day and leave all of the expectations at the door, generally they finish way better than they ever thought they could have. Those expectations are, or what they thought before the race was, “Maybe I could go 10 hours on my best day.” And I'm like, “Okay, let's not think about that. Let's just think about doing the swim, and doing the best you can, and getting to the next buoy, staying in the moment, being grateful for this opportunity.” And shifting from “this is what I want” to “this is what I have and this is what I can do right now.” And I think if the athletes that can do that -- and I think the pros do a really good job of doing that, and just getting in that that zen state, or flow state if you want to say -- if they can do that, they're have a way better day than if they're always looking at themselves from the outside in, “Am I doing what I wanted to do? Am I fast enough? Am I failing?” Or “I'm not hitting the watts I thought I could hit,” and “this feels really hard,” instead of flipping that script, or being able to flip that script and just focus on, “I'm doing the best I can right now, and I'm okay with that.” Yeah, so it's sort of just this mindset shift.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, really, really like that. Mark, did you have anything to add before I move us on?

Mark Allen: The pros are usually really good at course recon, first and foremost. They understand the course. If it's a big race, they've gone over it.

Andrew Harley: You say that, I know Tim O'Donnell has taken a wrong turn before on race day.

Mirinda Carfrae: It doesn't surprise me.

Mark Allen: I think all of us might be guilty of that, just maybe.

Mirinda Carfrae: I never did.

Mark Allen: But they try to do course recon so that they understand the course, and that helps you visualize the race before you go into it. If you can see it well in advance, you can incorporate some of the key elements into your training. That sort of visual preparation really helps. And then I think another piece that a lot of pros are really good at is weathering the down moments. When they're not feeling good, let's say they're feeling bad, it doesn't turn into, “This is a bad day,” it's just, “This is a bad moment.” And then they pivot and re-group. And if things are unfolding differently than they had planned, they adapt their strategy based on what's actually happening on the day. If you look at the men's World Championship Nice last year with Casper, he wasn't in the lead the whole day. There was a whole host of them, men who came off the bike together, and there were attacks, and he just kept pulling himself back into that, whoever was in the lead at the moment. And so it was this continual regrouping thing. And so I guess if I was to put it into words, I think the pros are really good at taking any moment, no matter how hard it is or how they're feeling compared to how they thought they should feel, they assess as opposed to judge. They're assessing, “Okay, I'm not feeling good. What do I need to do?” I need to eat more, I need to drink more. I need to eat less, drink less. I need to slow down for a minute. I need to relax my shoulders, whatever it is. They're assessing as opposed to going, “I feel like shit, so I'm having the worst day of my life out here.” They keep themselves from whining. And I think a lot of times if you're--

Andrew Harley: Troubleshooting instead of panicking.

Mark Allen: Exactly, yeah, and you're not taking any one moment and setting it in stone, saying, “This is my entire day.” It's just a moment.

Mirinda Carfrae: And just to echo what Mark said, it reminded me of an article, or a study I read. And they've found that professional, the most successful professional athletes are eternal optimists. They just believe it's going to get better. They just believe it. They're vocal optimists. And so they were talking a lot about tennis players, and in tennis, you have a bad point or a bad couple of points. You have to have amnesia. You have to forget about that and believe that you can change your trajectory. And it's gone. It happened in the moment, it sucked, but it's gone now. And now this one's going to be better, or the next one's going to be better. And so just having the ability to always have a glass half-full approach, if you want to say that, but just, it's going to get better. Of course it's going to get better, because it does get better. And having that eternal belief -- you believe it, you achieve it, right? So I think that's something to consider, or be mindful of, when you're out there racing and you find yourself spiraling -- that it's not serving you.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. One other point I wanted to talk on for a little bit is every time I fire up an IRONMAN broadcast, or a T100 broadcast, or a Supertri broadcast, that the bikes just get more and more insane. The cockpits people have these days are just carbon front to back, basically wrapping their entire arms now. The hydration setups, everything is just, in terms of the bike, is just getting more and more advanced. I'm seeing higher stack in the shoes. I'm seeing more people with aerodynamic calf sleeves. And that's just me tuning into for the races here and there. You guys are much more in the thick of it, paying a little bit closer attention. When we're looking at what the pros are doing with our equipment choices, with our race day setups, what are the immediate things that come to mind on, oh yeah, an age grouper can do that too, or, maybe you shouldn't? Mark, what do think?

Mark Allen: You know, the bike is one of those parts of triathlon that I actually, it was something that I dreaded, because I knew that every year there was going to be 3 more little pieces that I could stick on, or change, or trade out that was going to give me a little bit more advantage. And so I really relied on people who were experts in cycling to tell me what I needed to do so that I stayed current, so that I had the fastest stuff, so that I was not giving myself a disadvantage. I mean, for me, I'm sort of like, do I need that kickstand or not? But they're like, no, you need those titanium bolts, and your wires need to be routed in here and not there. And now, it's what kind of – tubes or tubeless? How wide are the wheels going to be? I mean, there's so many things. Am I going to have one chain-ring up front, or am I going to have two? There's so many pieces, and so it's really good to know that. Get some help. You don't have to be an expert in this. You can get experts to guide you, and then pick the pieces that you can afford and that you can work with. And then ultimately ask yourself, is my bike position comfortable? If it's not, the fastest bike in the world is not going to serve you well. And I always say, it's easy to buy the fastest bike in the world. It's hard to make that fast bike go fast. So ultimately, even with all of the equipment, make sure that you have your training base covered, because that's what's really going to elevate your performance more than that extra, super light bolt that you put on your stem.

Andrew Harley: Rinny?

Mirinda Carfrae: I would agree. I think for me, just clean your bike before the race or take it in for a service. If you have a bike and maybe you don't have the money to get all the fancy stuff, but a clean bike that works well, new tires if you can, or at least tires are not heavily worn, will serve you well. A 10, or 15, or 20 minutes on the side of the road fixing a flat tire, it's going to cost you a lot more than maybe a new cockpit on race day. Then, yeah, I think experts, with our Salty Bears Racing, we have them reach out to Matt Botrill. He's a big guru when it comes to what equipment is fastest for the athlete. How do we make them faster without having to expend any more watts? And even just positioning. How you actually hold your head is important. Helmet can be important, but how you sit on your bike and how you hold your head, it's not going to cost you any more money. It's just going to cost you some drills in training to do the turtle. Shoulders up, head in. That takes practice, and discipline, and training. It doesn't cost you anything. So there's definitely low hanging fruit, but I think I'll repeat what Mark said in that with the tech evolving so quickly, I think it's good to spend that $200 and speak to an expert on aerodynamics, and have them take a look at your bike and tell you X, Y, and Z you could change for a faster bike split. And then you can figure out what you can afford.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, you could spend more than that guessing at what might be best for you and finding out down the road, “Oh, I really don't -- this isn't jiving with my foot shape. I actually need these cycling shoes or these running shoes.” Love that suggestion, both for swim, bike and run. You can get plugged in with people that really know what they're talking about with the latest and greatest. Two more questions in our main set today. And this one's going to turn the tables a little bit, because we've been talking so much about what the pros do and what age groupers should learn from the pros, but I'm curious, from the both of you -- you had legendary professional careers. Your experience with the sport was at the highest of the highest peak in your race career. And now, you both coach some pros, but you also coach plenty of age groupers. What maybe surprised you, when you started working with age groupers, about maybe the different way they viewed the sport or approached the sport? Was there anything that maybe you had to learn as a coach about us pesky age groupers when you started working with us? Rinny?

Mirinda Carfrae: There's nothing really that stands out. For me, it's a comfortable place in that when I was a professional athlete, I was very balanced in my approach to the sport. I never felt like it was what made me who I was, and so I'd never had trouble retiring. I felt happy, and fulfilled, and content. I also looked at the year and made sure I had downtime. And so, you know, while my partner was also a professional, I feel like we were very normal professionals. And so when I came to coach age groupers, I'm like, yeah, of course you want to go out with your husband tonight. And of course, you should sleep in tomorrow and take a session off if you guys have a date night once every 3 weeks. Yeah, let's take that day off. And so for me, it's a nice place to be, because yeah, it just makes sense to look at the whole person and not just -- and there's a lot as well that's so similar. They all want to be the best that they possibly can be, which is no different from the pro athlete. So yeah, there's a lot of similarities there, too.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I mean for me as an age grouper, it’s always time goals. It's always, man, I really want to go, I want to get to the point as an athlete where I can go sub-5 at a 70.3. And I want to get to the point where I can go sub-11 at an IRONMAN. And it's, I want to be at the podium this weekend at my local sprint. Those goals are still there, they're just a little different. But it's all a different version of I want to be as good as I can be. So love that. Mark, same question over to you. Is there anything that surprised you about age groupers?

Mark Allen: Yeah, I think one of the things that surprised me most about age groupers is that they have that same driven mentality that pros do, a lot of them. I mean, it's something they're doing for fun. It's, quote/unquote, a “hobby,” but their approach is very professional, in terms of just their focus and their commitment. And I was like, wow, they're not just doing this sort of -- this is a big part of their life, and it has a lot of importance, and they're trying to gain a lot personally from it. So the difference, of course, as we've mentioned, and everybody knows, that age groupers have a full life on top of this. And it's more, I think, harder for them to sort of slot that dedication into the rest of their life so that it enhances their life as opposed to taking away from it. And so, one of the things that I've -- one of the biggest challenges for me has been to sort of temper that enthusiasm just enough so that their life stays balanced. And when their life is balanced, as Rinny said, they're more at peace. And when you're at peace, then you're happy, and a happy athlete is a fast athlete. So I've kind of sort of had to get a lot of age groupers to go, “We're going to cut this back today, and do it guilt free. Don't feel guilty about it. This is what will enable you to do better.” Once I get an athlete to kind of bite off on that mentality, like just because we cut back or cut out a workout, that doesn't mean that they failed. That's just part of the adaptation that you have to go through. And as a pro, I had to do that. I had my days, my weeks, where I knew if I kept pushing, I was going to go off a cliff. To relate that similarity to them and say, “This is where you're at. This is what you need to do.” And if they do that, then the enthusiasm stays there, because it reduces the stress, that guilt of, “Okay, I'm cutting out a workout, but I'm doing this for a purpose. It's not because I'm lazy. It's not because I'm lacking motivation. There's a real reason why we're doing this.” And when that happens, then the magic keeps going.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. Last question of our main set. I'm just curious -- for all of my age groupers listening, I think a lot of us are big fans of the sport. We follow the pros, are rooting for the pros, whether they're on Dancing with the Stars or racing an IRONMAN. How can we, as age groupers, best support and cheer for our pros? Is it just following on Instagram? Is it doing anything more than that? How can we show you guys the love? Mark, what do think?

Mark Allen: If you're at a race and you see your favorite pro, go up to them and say, “Hey, just wanted to say hi. You've inspired me.” Because we're, as a pro, you're doing your own thing, and you're absorbed in the pro world, and you forget that, it's easy to forget that people are watching you and that people are inspired by you. And so to let them know, I think that gives a pro a bigger view of what they're actually doing out there. It's not just trying to win a prize purse and make your sponsors happy and all that. You're actually inspiring tons of age groupers with what you're doing. And so to take that and be responsible with that position that you're in, as well.

Mirinda Carfrae: Yeah, I like that, Mark. If they have a YouTube, subscribe. Comment on their Instagram posts, like their Instagram posts. I know, if you see him at a restaurant, maybe pick up the tab. That happened to me at times, or a bottle of wine after a race was sent over to a table. And you don't expect it. And again, I think what Mark said, you're so wrapped up in what you're doing, you don't realize the effect you have on the outside world. And I remember one time, a gentleman came up, and he gave me one of his seal coins, or whatever, and he said, “You know, I was 50 pounds heavier, and I saw you racing Kona, and it changed my life, and just thank you.” Things like that really go a long way. You're like, well, I'm doing this for more than just personal gain or my own agenda here. You're helping other people, and so to realize that, I think, is cool. And then the couple of times that people have picked up a bottle of wine, or gone to pay for my lunch or whatever and it's been paid for already, that's just really super sweet too.

[Transition Sound Effect]

Andrew Harley: For our final question of the day, this is our cool down question, and it comes from a member of our audience, and we actually already touched on this a little bit. So this could be a short cool down today, which would be fine. We had an athlete write in. Jessica. She says, “I've seen a number of recommendations for how early you should wake up on race day. It's made me curious. What do our coaches think? Is there a best amount of time to have before your race start or is this more personal preference?” Mark, earlier in the episode, you mentioned, hey, the pros get there and they give themselves plenty of time. So maybe the answer is wake up early. I don't know. But biologically, is there a time you recommend your athletes getting up to make sure their body, and mind, and breakfast, and all that jazz can go through all the motions before a race start? Coach Rinny?

Mirinda Carfrae: For me, I always made sure I up about 2 and a half hours before a race. My goal was to have my breakfast, what I was eating, finished at 2 hours out to get my stomach. So it was really more about timing of breakfast and when I wanted to have that finished before a race start. And then, of course, I'd sip on carbohydrates for another hour, but my actual food, or solid food, that I was taking on had to be done 2 hours out from race start. So that was how I figured out how to wake up for a race.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, makes sense. Obviously local sprints to IRONMAN events, your actual start time can vary greatly. So that gives a nice little back it up from breakfast recommendation there from Coach Rinny. Coach Mark, over to you.

Mark Allen: Yeah, a lot of it depends on when the transition area is going to close. Your wave might be at 7:30. The pros went off an hour before that. So timing the breakfast can be a bit of a challenge. You have to get there, you have to get everything in the same time as the pros, but then you're sitting around. So if that's going to happen to you, then obviously make sure you've got some calories with you so you can keep topping off that tank. My recommendation is always, I did about that 2-and-a-half-hour window also. I'd get up about 2 and a half hours early, had my breakfast done at a good hour and a half to 2 hours before the race start. But the main thing, my recommendation for age groupers is whatever amount of time you think it's going to take, give yourself probably an extra 30 minutes. And part of that is that you think, okay, it's 2 miles to the start, so it's going to take me X amount of time to drive there and park my car. Well, there's 2,000 other athletes who are going to be doing the same thing, and so the road's jammed, and you're not going anywhere, and all of a sudden you're stressing. So if you give yourself that extra 30 minutes beyond what you think it might take, then you're still stress-free, because you're like, okay, I already accounted for this. And as you know, nature calls before the race, and depending on the number of port-a-potties in the transition area, you're going to be standing in that line for an extra 10 minutes also. So all of those little extras add up, factor that in.

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